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Town Pantheon
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Vael
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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 4:20 pm    Post subject: Town Pantheon  Reply with quote

This was mentioned in the Plot Plotting thread, but I thought I'd bring it here to get it to people's attention and interest again.
Now, there are plenty of gods in Town, but I was thinking it would be interesting to make a collection of gods of Town. Sure Pelor is a god, but he's not in the pantheon of Town because there's hardly anyone (if any at all, actually) who worships him in Town. I think it would be interesting to differentiate between Gods in and of Town, and perhaps increase interaction and understanding of how the different religions of Town work.

My proposal in the Plot thread was that to be considered a God in general, you need a few things:

1) Power
A character needs power enough to be a deity. It doesn't need to be magic power- look at Heracles. It doesn't need to be supernatural power- look at the Pharoahs and Xerxes, who claimed deific nature through masses of minions and authority.

2) Fame and Worshipers
To be a deity one needs to be widely known, for people to recognize them and their power. Without fame, you simply don't have enough support to achieve any kind of recognition at all in the status of a people. Worshipers are needed for people to begin to acknowledge and promote you as a deity, so that you won't merely be some powerful spirit or entity. (Such as the Norns, the Muses, and the personification of Death).

3) A Goal or Emphasized Aspect
A powerful character needs something to represent- you can't just be a god of being a god. You need something obvious about your drive and nature for people to look at and recognize. Aphrodite would be rather pointless without love and lust, while Odin wouldn't be worth worshiping without his wisdom. You need to be a god OF something, and that something needs to be widely recognized.


Now, what really needs to be settled is what would make a god a part of the Town pantheon. I think it would require that they have worshipers and fame within the Town, of course... but I'm lost on specifics.

Also, I need to know if anyone is interested in this, or if I'm just speaking to air. Where would we take the Town Pantheon idea? Who would want to join it? Who could join it, and who might be interested in moving towards joining it?
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The Chilli God
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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The best I can say for this proposal is that I am interested in its progress and, if it is possible, would be interested in moving myself/Chilli towards joining it.
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Deadly
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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like an interesting idea. Another thing we could consider is the possibility of someone becoming part of the pantheon by less than normal means... maybe by force or trickery. This could open up some interesting roleplaying possibilities, like killing a Town god and taking his/her place, or tricking people into worshiping you, or other seedy approaches to godhood. Of course something like that would fall under the normal rules of fair play in Town.

Another thing that needs to be settled is what it actually means to be a god of Town. Will it provide any kind of privilege or power (IC and/or OOC) not otherwise available, or will it be purely symbolic?
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Keledrath
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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The issue I can see with fame is that that is a really hard thing to manage.  You can't say "I make this character, who's a really famous god everyone's heard of", because that's godmodding your character into other people's knowledge.
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Vael
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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deadly- I have no intention of allowing this to give OOC authority or status. It might give some kind of IC power, but only through association with other gods. IE, instead of being a new god all alone, you are a franchise god. Wink
However, depending on what the pantheon does, it might influence those who join it.
And yes, getting in through force or trickery could be fun. ^-~

BB- That's exactly the point. Becoming a town deity IS a hard thing to do, and there isn't anyone really famous like that until you introduce them. This requires time, patience, and participation in Town that any god should have.
This isn't something that you can have a character join on a whim.
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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Except that sometimes it fits tha background.  Slishhtak, for example, lacks worshipers or fame because he's been dead for a really long time.  Xand lacks fame because he's been fissioned for roughly the same amount of time.
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Vael
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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The people of Town come from so many backgrounds and places that really the only way to gain fame in Town is to come TO Town. It hasn't existed for very long at all, so you can't argue that anything is from all of their pasts.
Hence the need for fame built IC and OOC.
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The Herald
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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This sounds cool. I'm up for it.
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Vael
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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Still, I'm hoping someone will have suggestions for specific requirements.
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Xaspian
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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A temple (or equivalent site of worship) within Town. Fairly basic.
At least on PC priest/worshipper/supplicant.
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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I think that the requirements that Vael listed in the first post apply to three gods that we already have.

Merrant
Inari
Iames

All three are known to have plenty of power, all three are known to have worshippers, all three have an emphasis or goals and all three have a Temple in Town.

The above could possibly include Aesa.  She has gained followers, has a Temple (of sorts) in Town and she definitely has power and a focus.
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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Getting to more specifics about Vael's requirements (albeit simple)...

Power: At least rank 6 (Demigod) on the Power rating system.
Fame: At least one 'cleric'. I don't think it's necessary to have any temples or anything - such bold declarations of worship don't do as well for worshippers of certain deities.
Portfolio: Must have one, defined in character profile.

As wxdruid said, even these few requirements would cut out a lot of the lesser deities already in town. So, to help the population of the pantheon, it could be made possible for greater deities to sponsor lesser ones into the pantheon, granting them influence in exchange for some form of allegience.
With any luck, this whole thing could then turn into a sort of 'guild war' for gods, with greater deities sponsoring as many lesser deities as possible and securing alliances with other greater deities to aid them against their adversaries. This could lead to a very interesting plot.
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Keledrath
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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Issues being that the gods I do play (Xand and Slishhtak) have no reali interest in worshipers.  Technically, Xand grants spells for Keledrath, but since that's my own PC...

Slishhtak, meanwhile, doesn't gve a damn about clerics unless they're evil dragons of at least wyrm age.  He got his divinity the old fashioned, Time of Troubles-esque way.  Eating gods.
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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bookboy wrote:
Issues being that the gods I do play (Xand and Slishhtak) have no reali interest in worshipers.  Technically, Xand grants spells for Keledrath, but since that's my own PC...

And Iames grants spells to Lyrak, both of whom are played by me.
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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Then there's Tehanu.  Keledrath is the ONLY PC Xand grants spells to.
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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well,Bookboy, maybe your characters don't have to be members of the Town's Pantheon?
This doesn't stop them from being gods, but it means that they can't get drinks from the minibar in the Town Gods' Clubhouse.
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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, at one time someone had mentioned something about having clerics that WEREN'T played by the same player.

Which means Kyr gets added to the list.
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Vael
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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bookboy wrote:
Issues being that the gods I do play (Xand and Slishhtak) have no reali interest in worshipers.  Technically, Xand grants spells for Keledrath, but since that's my own PC...

Slishhtak, meanwhile, doesn't gve a damn about clerics unless they're evil dragons of at least wyrm age.  He got his divinity the old fashioned, Time of Troubles-esque way.  Eating gods.

Then, in a proper pantheon (such as any mythos out there) they would not be gods. Slishhtak would more akin to the World Serpent, Jörmungandr, while Xand might just be some powerful personification or distant entity like Father Time, the Grim Reaper, or a Titan.

This is my point. You can have deific entities of largely divine power, but without people saying that they are gods, and worshiping them as such, they fail to actually function as gods, even if they are or could be gods. Even if those two could grant spells to worshipers, they can't be gods without actually fulfilling requirements necessary to be gods.


Now personally, I believe it would be best to have a requirement of multiple worshipers- perhaps like three.
It would go like this-
You must have three worshipers to be a god. One of these worshipers can be played by either 1) the player of the god, or 2) a person who already plays a worshiper/cleric.
This makes it so you have to have at least three players in consensus for someone becoming a god, which I think would be appropriate.
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Vael
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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay okay okay okay.[/excited]
Having talked the issues over with everyone, I have an idea which would do a few things.
1) Make things a more accurate mythology/pantheon setting
2) Allow for a greater range of applicants and people who enter.


First off, let me point out all of my above posts.
The examples I made- Jörmungandr, the Norns, Titans- all of those sorts.
Well, they're a part of the pantheon and mythos too, are they not? While the heavily worshiped deities may be the inner circle and focused on aspect, this is merely because a lot of people worship them (and thus they get talked about.)
Picture it like this:
Celebrities are the most talked about people, yes? But are they the most important?
...not necessarily. They're simply celebrities because they are talked about.

Hence, I propose the following changes to the ideas.

-Entry into the Pantheon requires two things-
1) A power level of 6 or greater
2) Immortality (or some lifespan nearly the equivalent)

Beyond that, there will be ranks of influence, and several levels of progression that may or may not require worshipers.
You could, fo example, progress as a god. Lets say if you wanted demi-god status, you'd need all of the above and one worshiper.

Tentative idea:
Three trees of progression.

Deity
Monster
Personification

Each one would progress by using each different qualifier of what I have said a god needs.

Deities would need to progress by having a larger number of worshipers.

Monsters would progress by having a greater amount of power.

Personifications would need to progress by having a greater dedication and influence over a certain aspect or goal.

However, you could progress in multiple areas, though I would advise people not to go overboard. For example- Nike had followers, though she was a personification. This would be represented by having a few ranks of deity status.
Heracles was extremely powerful but had followers, so he would progress as a monster and a deity.
Typhon was a monster and powerful, but was also rumored to be the source of volcanic eruption, so he would be both a monster and a personification.
Etc.
Deities, methinks, would have greater influence over the population and people of Town simply because that is their nature- to influence and have people worship them, though certainly the others could exert their authority and power.
How these roles would fit and interact would become clear as the deities and pantheon began to fill out.

How does this sound?
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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That sounds a lot better.
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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alright.  I plan on moving Xand's base here after the Plane of Nightmares plot, so he'll qualify for Diety.  Slishhtak is perfect for Moster.

Also, we may want to include something more.  Currently, get a big enough Dragon and boom, it's in the pantheon.
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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well that's the point, really. Huge and powerful monsters WERE sort of parts of the pantheon and the mythos- Cyclops, for example.
Maybe some kind of divine spark would be required, though how we would determine whether someone has that...
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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps that's where TCG's Guild War idea comes in, with sponsor-esque alliances.

EX:  Slishhtak would "sponsor"  powerful chromatic dragons.
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PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Sunn fits these requirements, although she's forsaken her immortality.

Gent certainly does.
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PostPosted: Mon May 05, 2008 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gent fits a role similar to Ao in FR, I suppose. Overdeities, divine beings of Rank 21+ that don't grant spells.

Anyway.

I could add in the Leviathan of Spite, a deity I use for Mor'Illorum, it's got a temple whithin the castle... A high priest I play (Sszzass), and a few NPC clerics who are up to grabs around the area.

Fairly simple portfolio, misery, spite and strife.

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My other powerful entities are monsters and abominations. Draken is an Evil that predates creation. Yes, Evil, starting with capital letter.


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