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Vael

Magic and the Moons (Enupnion Setting)

Now, this thread runs with the following assumptions.

1) Moons provide arcane magic to wizards, divine magic to clerics, and the fragments of the missing moon creates druids and sorcerers.

2) Wizards and sorcerers directly gain magic from the moons, while clerics and druids gain it from rituals and faiths surrounding the moons.

Now, personally I think we should have five moons, one of which has been shattered and broken. Furthermore, I think we should reshape the School system of magic to have each moon representing a school. If we accept this idea, then I believe the shattered moon should be of the transmutation magics (explaining why all these new creatures were created from it).

If this is true, then it would also give a good reason for the druids (and sorcerers) having wildshape abilities (or something similar), and also why lycanthropes and shifters and the like exist.

However, this leaves us with the problem of narrowing everything down to five schools. Currently, there are:

Abjuration
Conjuration
Divination
Enchantment
Evocation
Illusion
Necromancy
Transmutation

Now, taking a look at exactly what each one is (and the balances in them, according to some people) I would suggest that we combine:

Evocation and Conjuration (it really won't change much, and evocation has always been weak. Both of them have to do with creation)

Necromancy and Transmutation

Enchantment and Illusion (both of them have to do with fooling with minds)


The shattered moon would be necromancy and transmutation (thus giving necromancy and even worse name, and a reason for us to create super undead type creatures for us to fight off. Zombies? Eh? Eh?)



Any other suggestions/comments/ideas?
Lykan

So just a question... Vampires and werewolves never existed before the moon explosion? Or were they just altered even more by it?
Vael

They probably didn't exist unless they were created by people with transmutation magic.
Lykan

Possible names and moon colors (subject to change by people who find them stupid):

Kurai: Blue, Abjuration

Imura: Red-Orange, Coonjuration and Evocation

Saita: Gray, Divination

Tau Ren: Violet, Enchantment and Illusion

Zentul: Green, Necromancy and Transmution; The as'ploded moon.

I mean, shards should be brighter colored so their easier to differenciate from normal rocks.

Plus, mutant creatures with green shards sticking out of their hides looks wicked. Very Happy
Moozy

I think the Divination moon should be the most obvious one and the one most focused on in Astronomy, for obvious reasons, as also maybe the Enchantment/Illusion moon should change colors...
The Herald

Instead of combining schools of magic - which is a fairly significant change in mechanics, IMO - why not just make certain moons the source of two different schools? It accomplishes pretty much the same thing, and has the added bonus of allowing different school specialists to be different "sects," so to speak.
Vael

Because it honestly makes more sense for only one kind of magic to come from each moon? You could argue that different people use it in different ways, yes, but honestly I think the system of magic schools needs work anyways.
Besides, it really isn't much change in mechanics. The only system that truly uses the schools is the wizard specialization type stuff, and I've always thought they did a bad job with it.
The Herald

Meh.
Deadly

Re: Magic and the Moons

Vael wrote:
1) Moons provide arcane magic to wizards, divine magic to clerics, and the fragments of the missing moon creates druids and sorcerers.


Just to make sure I get that right. Wizards also use the moon fragments, right? Or, atleast some of them do? And did you mean that the fragments create druids too, in the same rather literal sense that they "create" sorcerers?

Otherwise I like your idea with the schools and moons. I also like Lykan's names and colors, except perhaps that Saita, the divination moon, IMO should be rather white than gray. Not a big difference, but I've always associated the color white with divination. A sort of ghostly moon, perhaps, maybe the most distant of the moons?
Vael

I think wizard could use moon fragments, but not like a sorcerer could.

A druid is sort of a combination between a cleric and a sorcerer, if you get that.

And I've been assuming that each of the moons is their color + lots of gray... to make them less vivid and "omg, look at the really bright neon moon." So we could make the divination moon a really light gray, but I think it best if we tone the color down.
Deadly

I agree, too bright colors would be bad.

And I think I know what you mean with the druids. As long as they don't get their magic entirely like sorcerers, I'm satisfied.
Destro Yersul

Well, if we work off Lykan's model (which I rather like, by the way), That would make one of the most potentially neon moons be asploded already: Green.

Dark blue would be fine for Abjuration, and the red orange moon could be the same colour as Mars. I think we should leave the shards of the green moon brighter, and possibly glowing. Some sort of throwback to whatever disaster destroyed it, maybe?
Vael

Perhaps the most potent magic remained, and the gray dust kinda boomed?
Destro Yersul

That works, and would help explain the weird transformations and stuff. A really strong magical presence is dangerous to be around.
helgraf

Perhaps spellbooks need to be written in ink with a tiny amount of powdered moonstone in it.... (would help explain the exorbitant prices of spellbooks)
Xaspian

It's been mentioned before, but not in this thread, (that I can see), but the phase of the moon, how lose it is to the planet (where in the orbit it is), and other things would affect the strengths of their respective magics. The way they interact could be interesting... And, of course, some types of magic users would find lunar charts very useful when planning what to do...

I was thinking more along the lines of using moons more for elements, rather than schools. But then, that probably wouldn't fit as well with the magic system you're using. And might feel a bit too over-used.
Meh.
Ms Elaneous

That's what I was thinking. Although, it is overused because people tend to like it, I think that the school system might be an interesting change now that I've seen it. Blargh.
Geomancer

Drawing off the conversation in the Campaign setting thread:

I hate to use a Lord of the Rings reference to get a point across, but I think magic users in Enupnion should be less big and flashy with their magic and more like Gandalf.

For instance, when people want to get some place, they don't teleport, they actually travel there. I don't know why mages are such whimps that they can't use their feet every now and again.

If the magic is subtle then it has a much greater effect when magic is actually used. To offset this we could make casters tougher melee wise.

For instance, an Enupnion Sorcerer that has had his handed turned to water might fight with the ice blade he can turn his limp into rather then magic about half the time.

Just throwing it out there, don't shoot me.
Deadly

I agree that magic should be much more subtle and less flashy. Definitely. Most things should probably also take more time, like instead of just speaking a few words to teleport, you actually have to build a portal or gate of some kind.

I also agree that sorcerers could be tougher. It'd depend on their mutations, though. Some mutations might give great strength in battle, while others might strengthen spellcasting.

I don't think mages and such should be tougher, instead I would like to see them removed from the battlefield more, working in the background by using divinations, alchemy and other things to improve the chances that their friends survive the battle.
Vael

Hmm... so sorcerers would become sort of monstrous creatures that worked on improving themselves and getting pieces of magic, while wizards would work for days to ensnare a mind or craft an illusion.
I like.
Smaller things, of course, could be done sooner...
Geomancer

Yay! My idea has been accepted!
Artemis

I like this. Sorcerors relying on raw power from themselves and their mutations while Wizards rely on careful measure and study for their spells. Yep this gets my vote.
Vael

Should I go ahead and try to finalize the moon/color/number/school/general magic thing?

Like, how each class gets their magic and what each moon represents (and what color it is)?
Geomancer

Yes I think you should.
helgraf

I posted this in the world thread - I like the magic / moons idea, but straight breakdown by school just seemed too ... limited. This is what I'd brainstormed.

The moons could just as easily be magically active and with different magic effects that aren't as simple as "rules breakdown by school / element / energy type" (though five moons and five energy types does have a nice synergy - perhaps sonic is the broken moon - or if you dislike thinking of acid as energy, replace it with force)

There might even be partial overlap in what each moon's 'nature' allows its bits to be magicked into - and what sorts of afflictions/effects they might generate. Also, each stone could theoretically be 'obversed' to create a second pool of effects.

:ponders: Here's an alternate take on the Moons and Magic

Kurai of the Barrier ... Kurai Moonstones generate effects related to protections, both physical and metaphysical. Kurai Moonstones might create natural armor, or cause mutation SLAs from Abjuration and Transmutation with a generally defensive / protective emphasis. Kurai might also be the source of Conjuration (Healing) magics with the exception of magics that reverse death.

In obverse, Kurai Moonstones tear away magic, weaken bonds, and otherwise introduce entropy.

Imura the Consumptive ... Imura Moonstones, the most unstable of the four unexploded moons ... harness and alter energy in the area, usually in explosive manner. Imura Moonstones create primarily effects from the "energy descriptor" spells - Evocation and Conjuration spells primarily. In terms of mutative abilities, however, Imura moonstones are usually the most dangerous to their 'hosts'; energy flux is usually quite dangerous.

In obverse, Imura Moonstones absorb or dampen energy, in extreme concentrations creating an effect like negative energy. Resist Energy, Protection from Energy and Energy Immunity items could be made using obversed Imura Moonstones by a sufficently skilled craftsman.

Saita the Watchful .... Saita Moonstones, also known as Seerstones by sorcerers, generate effects that enhance and expand perception; these effects tend to primarily be divinatory in nature, though some amount of transmutative shapechange magic is also included. In obverse, Saita Moonstones dull the senses, deceive them, or create false feedback.

Tau Ren the Embracer ... Tau Ren Moonstones generate effects that influence the mind and heart. They compel, cajole, exploit fears and dreams, incite men to frenzy, despair, hope and hatred. Tau Ren Moonstones do not seem to have a proper obverse; they cover the full spectrum of mental and emotional manipulation. Illusions, Enchantments, and Divinations of the Mind-Affecting subschool are the province of Tau Ren moonstones, and their mutations tend to follow suit.

Zentul the Broken ... Zentul Moonstones touch and alter the most dangerous energies, manipulating planar fabric and the essences of life and death in a most direct manner. Zentul Moonstones govern Calling and Summoning effects, and effects that restore life to the dead - or a mockery of life in the case of animation effects. Most necromancy is also solidly within the baliwick of Zentul Moonstones. Transmutations that bring about massive change (Polymorph, Petrification and the like) are also potentially governed by Zentul Moonstones.
Artemis

I like the idea of opposing forces within each moon. Maybe they could come from different types of moon rock. You know how our moon has a light and dark side, and that the dark side is covered in mostly that blackish rock called maria (I think that's what it's called anyways)? Well maybe one set of magic would come from the lighter stones while the opposite set comes from the darker stones.
helgraf

Artemis wrote:
I like the idea of opposing forces within each moon. Maybe they could come from different types of moon rock. You know how our moon has a light and dark side, and that the dark side is covered in mostly that blackish rock called maria (I think that's what it's called anyways)? Well maybe one set of magic would come from the lighter stones while the opposite set comes from the darker stones.


*nods* Mmm ... five moons, ten 'groups' in five opposed pairs.

That would give you eight schools of magic just from the unexploded moons.

Perhaps psionic powers resulted from the catastrophic event that blew up the fifth moon, which is why it's similiar (Magic/Psionics Transparency) yet different (the psionic flavour vs the magic one).

Yeah, I'm freestorming. But yeah, giving each moon an idea and two spins on it ('normal' and 'obverse' - or light and dark, if you prefer), seemed to flow nicely.
Deadly

Except that you won't really have moon stones from the other four moons, atleast it'd be extremely unlikely.

The way I see it, the moons hold tremendous magical power, not just a lot of power but absolutely insane amounts... that is, while they are whole. That is why they are powerful enough to affect things down on the planet they circle, and that is why noone would go there because you would explode from the terrible amount of magic long before you ever reached a moon.

So, we have the moons in the sky. The only way to use their magic is from down on earth, by carefully observing their movements, positions, rotations and interrelations and using that knowledge in complicated rituals and magical constructions. You do not use the raw material from those moons, simply because finding such stones would be so unlikely as to be nearly impossible. A very few may exist as artifacts, and could be extremely powerful because they are amplified by the moon in the sky, but that's it.

Then there's the broken moon, the moon fragments. Because it's broken, each shard only holds a fraction of the total power. If all shards were collected you'd have enough power to transform the planet into a fluffy bunny, but you'd die long before that from the raw energies.

I like the school breakdown, so the fragments would hold powers of the transmutive and necromantic kind. That fits the general idea well, they transmute and cause change, and that power can be harnessed as it is.

But, the moons are related, they affect each other. The broken moon is no different, despite being broken, so the other moons would affect how the fragments work, so if the moons in the sky are all aligned in a certain way, perhaps the shards work more strongly or in a different way than normally.

The shards may even be used in a way that enhances other forms of magic, like abjuration or divination, even though the shards themselves don't hold abjuration or divination powers, but because they are tied to the other moons.

This would mean that those who hold the shards could potentially have a lot of magical power compared to those who don't. That might help emphasise why those people are feared and hunted as heretics... they have power, and power is always envied and feared.

In short, magic is complex. It's not just that each moon has certain powers (schools), they also affect each other in innumerable ways. We could use the normal/obverse idea in the sense that which magic a moon radiates most depends on which side of it faces the planet at the time. At the same time it's magic is affected by the other moons, so which moons are visible on the sky is also important. And you could continue on and on, creating a million possibilities.

I hardly think this system is limited.
Xaspian

Vague idea that may or may not conflict with what's already been said, and may or may not have been mentioned already...

Okay, so those classes that rely on moon-rocks, or mutations caused by moon-fall, only really focus on the style of magic from the fallen moon (Transmutive and necromantic, or Zentul), as that's the only type of moon rock they can have access to, really.

The classes that get magical power from observing, and praying/drawing upon the four remaining moons have to spen a lot more time studying them, generally aren't as powerful, rely on the phases, and can only really use the schools/styles proided by the surviving moons.

But - This is post apocalypse, kinda. Might it be possible that, before the Fall, there was enough technology for space travel? Might there be hidden repositories or storerooms, where carefully gathered moon roks from before the Fall are kept, originally for scientific research? Deep inside (probably dangerous) ancient ruins, a luky adventurer might find an extrememly rare stone from one of the remaining moons. With study, they might be able to learn to use this moon's power, in addition to the Zentul rocks they might have been slightly more familiar with.

Just a though. Feel free to use, abuse, or reject as you will.

Oh, and I agree with the interactions between moons being very complex. The study of Ebtweens is quite important to the more wizardly people.
Deadly

That idea fits ok with my above, I think, as long as the rocks from other moons would be extremely rare. I like the idea that they are very powerful, as I mentioned perhaps because their power is amplified by the moon they came from, which is still whole.

I don't think they would have gone to the moons a lot, and only with unmanned probes, but once or twice it might have happened. It actually fits well with the history about the exploded moon... what if one of the expeditions there caused the explosion of the moon? That would certainly also explain the distrust for technology.
Vael

The class idea is pretty much what we had already talked about.

Yeah, I had mentioned the space faring idea to Ms. E over IM, actually. That is an explanation for how other moon shards could have shown up... but still.
And honestly, that is more of an adventuring idea, and less of a thought to shape our world around.


And Helgraf- I think you're trying too much too fast. Giving names, and thinking of exact spells...
Plus, I honestly think that we should do one of two things-

1) Mostly use the existing magic system/schools (in a setup with the divided schools, like I provided, or add more moons, or perhaps even take a school or two out)

2) Create an entirely new magic system.

Changing the current system too dramatically could make the power and balance of it go very screwy. If we created a new system we could add in balance.
Deadly

You know, we could use the Incantations variation. I think it fits our idea of magic in Enupnion much better than the normal system. Things take longer, they are more specific and generally more interresting.

We'd still have the school division of the moons, I think.
Xaspian

Yes, that looks great. Maybe the mutant-sorcerers might use some powers that are abit quicker to use, but limit them...

I'm not too great on rules, but the ideas seem to fit it really well.
Deadly

I'm thinking sorcerers will focus mostly on their mutations. Some of them could grant magic like powers, like a chilling touch or a gaze that can scare the hell out of people, but it'd be limited. If sorcerers wanted more powerful magical effects they'd have to use incantations like everyone else.
Xaspian

Ah, okay. In that case, I don't know if the word 'sorcerer' is very appropriate, any more. But that discussion should probably take place in the 'class' thread.

Maybe factor in certain types of mutation for special requirements in some incantations? Maybe not...
helgraf

Vael wrote:
The class idea is pretty much what we had already talked about.

Yeah, I had mentioned the space faring idea to Ms. E over IM, actually. That is an explanation for how other moon shards could have shown up... but still.
And honestly, that is more of an adventuring idea, and less of a thought to shape our world around.


And Helgraf- I think you're trying too much too fast. Giving names, and thinking of exact spells...
Plus, I honestly think that we should do one of two things-

1) Mostly use the existing magic system/schools (in a setup with the divided schools, like I provided, or add more moons, or perhaps even take a school or two out)

2) Create an entirely new magic system.

Changing the current system too dramatically could make the power and balance of it go very screwy. If we created a new system we could add in balance.


Well, I took the existing names and gave them a little extra "tag" that went with the association I'd been making. Obviously anything posted here, as with anywhere on the Enupnion world boards is up for debate, discussion, change, et cetera.
helgraf

Vael wrote:
And Helgraf- I think you're trying too much too fast. Giving names, and thinking of exact spells ... Plus, I honestly think that we should do one of two things-


Well, firstly I just took the already offered names and gave them each a title. Secondly, I didn't think of exact spells - I deliberately tried to tie each moon to spell concepts - and gave examples.

Y'know, with the mutation thing, Spycraft's Origin of the Species is looking more and more attractive... Wink

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